The Rise of Non-Bank Acquisitions in Credit Unions
Credit unions have been making headlines for purchasing banks, but there’s a quieter, equally powerful movement happening behind the scenes. As Michael Bell shares, credit unions are increasingly acquiring ancillary businesses like insurance agencies and title companies to deepen member relationships, diversify income, and bolster strategic growth.
This post will dive into why credit unions are taking this bold step, how these transactions work, and what benefits they offer both to institutions and their members. If you’re seeking fresh growth strategies, you’re in the right place.
Why Credit Unions Are Buying Non-Bank Businesses
Creating Deeper Member Relationships
One major reason for these acquisitions is to enhance the member experience. By adding services like insurance, investments, and real estate assistance, credit unions can become a one-stop shop for financial needs. This approach deepens household relationships and creates tangible member benefits like rebates on real estate commissions at the closing table.
Generating Non-Interest Income
While deepening relationships is key, there’s also a smart financial play here. These ancillary businesses provide non-interest, non-fee income streams that diversify the credit union’s revenue. Unlike the traditional reliance on loan margins and account fees, these new income sources make institutions more resilient and financially sustainable.
What Kinds of Businesses Are Credit Unions Buying?
According to Bell, the “usual suspects” include:
- Title Companies: The most common and often the first step. Credit unions see this as a natural extension of mortgage operations.
- Property and Casualty Insurance Agencies: These provide needed services for members and add a steady revenue stream.
- Registered Investment Advisors (RIAs): Although acquisition costs can be higher due to private equity competition, these businesses deepen the credit union’s financial services offering.
Interestingly, credit unions have even acquired businesses like used car lots and armored car companies, showing just how creative this strategy can get.
Why Now Is the Perfect Time
- Boomer Business Owners Are Retiring
Many owners of these businesses are baby boomers nearing retirement who need exit plans. Credit unions that position themselves as buyers can tap into a wave of opportunities as these owners look to sell.
- A Rare Window of Opportunity
Michael Bell emphasized that now is a prime time for these transactions. With increased seller activity and the ability to generate immediate cash flow, credit unions that act now will be better positioned for the future. Missing this window could mean missing a significant growth opportunity.
How Credit Unions Are Making These Deals Happen
Strategic Planning Is Key
Most successful credit unions aren’t stumbling into these deals, they’re making deliberate, strategic moves to expand their service offerings. Some have it directly written into their strategic plans, identifying ancillary services they want to bring in-house.
Localized, Offensive Approach
Unlike buying banks, which has an established marketplace, finding non-bank businesses requires credit unions to get proactive. There’s no central listing service; it’s all about local relationships, community presence, and building a reputation as a ready buyer.
Capital and Structure Considerations
Most of these deals are modest in size—ranging from $1 million to $10 million—and provide immediate positive cash flow. Often, they’re structured through CUSOs (Credit Union Service Organizations), though some acquisitions remain directly under the credit union’s main structure.
Stream This Episode to Learn More About:
- The Trifecta of Non-Organic Growth: Why acquiring banks, bank branches, and ancillary businesses together form a winning growth strategy.
- The Hidden Marketplace: Why you won’t hear about these deals in the press and how you can find opportunities others are missing.
- Success Stories: How credit unions have transformed member value and revenue with creative acquisitions like real estate brokerages.
Listen now!
Michael Bell is not affiliated with or endorsed by ACT Advisors, LLC.
Audio Transcription (pulled from the podcast)
Doug English: Michael Bell, welcome back to see you on the show. Uh, as a, as a past guest, I know that our audience really appreciated your insights on all the activity in credit unions, buying banks. You, uh, you have been one busy fellow.
I see you all over in social media and, and, and credit union activity. So how are things, Michael?
Michael Bell: Very good, Doug. I, I, um, I enjoyed our previous chat and, uh, today really will align. There’s, there’s essentially three things that I always talk about and do across the country when it comes to buying, right?
Credit unions, buying banks, you mentioned, we discussed that. I also throw in the idea bank branches. It’s very similar to banks, obviously. And then there’s these everything else transactions, these ancillary businesses. The, uh. The, the things that are next to banking, but a lot like banking type businesses.
And, and I look forward to talking about that today.
Doug English: Yeah, that’s what we wanted to dig into. Uh, I haven’t seen a lot of content [00:01:00] on credit unions, uh, acquiring, uh, other entities other than a depository institution. Uh, so, uh, let’s just kind of, uh, what, uh, what is behind it when a credit union decides to buy another sort of entity?
What, what, what do you, what do you hear?
Michael Bell: Yeah, so, so just to set the stage, ’cause you’re, you’re correct. So anytime a credit union buys a bank or you know, a bank or a bank merges, there’s press releases. It’s easy to follow. Those easy to follow when bank branch deals occur for that same reason. But these transactions, I, I’ll tell you, um, you know, last year we probably did 20, 30, 40 of them.
Doug English: Really,
Michael Bell: they, yeah, it, it’s, it’s very frequent. They just don’t. If they don’t get the announcement that’s, these aren’t publicly traded businesses, you know, these don’t hit the press necessarily. Or if they do, it’s very localized and it’s not making like trade publications and things like that. So your, when he reached out to me, I was like, Doug, you’re onto something.
[00:02:00] Kudos. ’cause you said, does this happen? We should talk about it. What’s going on here? Yeah. And the answer is, it happens. It happens all the time. And not only that. I’ll tell you, we’re in a phase today where this is happening more than it has happened in the past, and there’s reasons for that. But this is the time, uh, where these businesses, uh, are selling.
Hmm. And then to answer the first question you asked me, you know, this is certainly, certainly. I would say a member service type play. So, so, um, you know, there’s margin pressure in our business always is there’s fee, income, pressure, everybody talks about that this is a way to certainly economically generate non fee income.
Right. Non margin income. Mm-hmm. But more than that, I think the bigger, deeper play that I’m seeing our clients use this for. It becomes a deeper member experience. So for the members, we, you know, have deposit [00:03:00] loan products. We all know about that, but by the way, now we have insurance investment, title insurance, you name it, and it becomes a deeper, wider member relationship.
Some people call it product for household or wallet share. All those boxes get ticked and, um. You know, there’s a lot of credit unions out there that very successfully are in these ancillary businesses, and I’ll just throw it out there. This is something that banks have done forever, right? This is, this, is these, the idea of being an insurance investments, title, insurance, et cetera, has existed for 50 years.
Yeah. In Bayland.
Doug English: Yeah. I mean, it makes intuitive sense that you’d wanna one stop shop your, uh, financial services just, it, it, it, it would be. Uh, simplifying for your personal life, but in credit unions, what is it that you find to be behind the transaction in the first place? Is it part, is it part of [00:04:00] the strategic plan for the organization?
Is it that, that they become aware of something in their neighborhood? Like what is it that is behind, uh, that process?
Michael Bell: Yeah, so look, I think sometimes these are accidental, right? Like sometimes the phone rings and things happen. But I will say that’s the exception to the rule. Those that are doing this are going on the offense, right?
They’re making an effort. They realize, Hey, we, we see value here. We want to be, we want to grow our investment. We want to bring insurance in-house, rather than have just a referral business, et cetera. And then they go out and, and let me just flip it quick to explain. I said, Doug, that that the, the time is now for this, and I believe that because I would ask everybody, just take a second, put yourself in your Chamber of Commerce, rotary Lions Club meeting, whatever that is.
Look at the people that own the local insurance business or investment business. How old are they? They’re baby boomers. What are [00:05:00] they doing? They’re retiring. They need an exit plan. And certainly again, exceptions, I’m generalizing, but I’m telling you that we are seeing owners of title companies, investment companies, insurance companies looking for a partner and selling.
’cause it’s time for them to retire and go on a cruise ship. And I’m not just saying that happens once last year, that happened 45 times last year in the state of Texas. I think we purchased five different title companies from people that are retiring. Um, by the way, I think total title company deals we did are over 10.
Across the country. It’s, and it’s the same story. It’s a family business. It’s a couple partners. These are wonderful businesses, but the folks are ready to retire. That has really upped transaction flow. And then back to what I said, it is an offensive proposition. So I think that the credit unions need to be out there.
They need to be in the community, and they need to make known that we’re a possible partner. When a bank sells [00:06:00] professionals usually sell the bank, we kind of create the marketplace, right? I’m, I’m identified as a buyer. There are people just like me that are identified as seller side, and we create a marketplace.
So if you wanna buy banks, you could essentially call me, and chances are you’re gonna see most of the deals, right? This is different though. There isn’t a central marketplace for these types of businesses, and so it takes more of a localized approach, regionalized approach, offensive approach. I can’t tomorrow deliver you a title company.
I probably could. A bank, right? Hmm. It’s just different. But credit unions we work with have had wild success. Once they go in, go into the community, and once they say we’re available. We’ve, we’ve done some great transactions and seen some wonderful results.
Doug English: So, so how does the, uh, credit union. Let’s assume that this is a strategic decision, uh, and the credit union is gonna look at these ancillary [00:07:00] businesses.
Which ones, uh, are making the, the biggest impact to the, in, like, how does this, uh, affect the balance sheet? How does, uh, that this affect the ratios? Uh, and what businesses are like, is, is there like a, a preferred order that you, uh, sometimes see as far as, uh, you know, the, which space do they go after first?
Most commonly.
Michael Bell: Yeah, so I will tell you the, the, the regular suspects, right? The, the, the, the ones we see the most, I’ve kind of mentioned, but I’ll just, I’ll just lay them out. Definitely title companies. So that’s where it starts. Property. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Title companies, property and casualty insurance businesses.
Mm-hmm. And then registered investment advisors. Right. That’s kind of the low hanging fruit. But I will tell you, we’ve purchased everything. And just to give you a flavor, Doug, we’ve purchased a used car lot, our credit union, we’ve, we’ve purchased a portion of an armored car company. Just, you know, just to really [00:08:00] expand everybody’s position.
But another one that we see that I think is, is really special help multiple credit unions get into real estate. So we have purchased real estate brokerages or buying and selling businesses, and it’s something that I love because I was talking to a couple credit users, I’ve done this with. They explained that, you know, you can come to us and get your mortgage, you know, title insurance, property casualty, but now we can help you buy and or sell.
And then Doug at the closing table, they will rebate back because you’re a member, some of the commission that you’re paying.
Doug English: Wow.
Michael Bell: Which is really tangible, really substantial. And talk about a member benefit, right? Looking at your closing statement when people are focused and seeing a thousand dollars credit or something.
That is like some hardcore, whoa, I’m a member and I get a benefit type stories that I’ve heard that I just think are awesome.
Doug English: That is awesome. I’ve never heard that, Michael. That’s really, that [00:09:00] is a, a huge impact to the member.
Michael Bell: Yeah. Yeah. And there are credit unions and it’s, and again, this doesn’t necessarily receive press, nor should it, I mean, this is just business, but there are credit unions across the country that, that help their members buy and sell real estate and have real estate professionals.
Um, and have done it well for decades. They’ve been in the business a long time, and it’s, it’s really interesting and, um, fascinating to me. I, I love that they’re in that business.
Doug English: So you said, uh, title insurance, property casualty, and RIA. So, uh, when a credit union buys, uh, one of the, the first two entities, what is the effect on the balance sheet?
On network?
Michael Bell: Yeah. Yeah. So look, you’re gonna spend some capital to make the purchase right? Now, typically these, I mean, and these certainly could be large, but I’m, I’m, we typically see transactions, you know, ranging from. A million dollars to $10 million type transactions. This is [00:10:00] not, these are not massive transactions.
Like sometimes we’ll buy a bank and you’re gonna spend a hundred million dollars, right? Mm-hmm. Or 200 million. These are on a smaller scale, so as to your balance sheet, you’re certainly putting capital to work, but usually not that much. I’ll tell you, these are done or valued usually on a earnings multiple, right?
So we, we, we look at the historical earnings, we can see the earnings forward. You’ll pay a certain multiple. That’s industry standard. These pay back and are cashflow positive from, from day one rather quickly.
Doug English: Immediately, right? Yeah.
Michael Bell: Yeah. And again, this is a different kind of income. So this is not related to, to, to fees.
This is not related to the margin between deposits and loans. This is a different type of income business that can supplement, um, your normal business. Uh, and it’s, again, it’s really powerful. You can look at credit unions there, there are several that come to mind that. Deep with [00:11:00] investments in insurance and maybe have title insurance and, and, um, it really diversifies in the end their balance sheet income statement when it comes to, you know, funding.
It’s pretty impressive.
Doug English: It, it, it is and it seems to. I mean, so I imagine there’s a threshold for most credit unions at which the scale is sufficient. The capital is sufficient to, to start these, uh, kinds of activities, and I assume it’s purchased by a qso, right? Q QSO is the organization that buys the businesses.
I would also imagine there are probably some QSO organizations that are multi credit union that are doing this kind of thing. Any, any, uh, examples or ideas in that area?
Michael Bell: Yeah. So that’s yes and yes. Right? So, so, and I tell people, you know, don’t get lost or confused or paused on this QSO thing. Like it, QSO is a legal entity.
It’s a subsidiary. That’s something that the. The lawyers or the [00:12:00] accountants will work out for you and make sure is, is is all safe. Some of times when we buy these things, it actually doesn’t go into cusso, Doug, right? We make a decision. There’s, there’s a reason not to. It’s just in the mainline business of the credit union.
More often than not, it, it is in one. There’s not really a decision or a great debate to be had there. It’s just a matter of how the organization is organized and if we need to start one or add one or put it in one. Um, so I don’t get lost in that. Space, uh, necessarily. Um, it’s more about is this kind of the right partnership?
Um, a lot. Again, a lot of times we buy these businesses and most of the folks are retiring. They may stick around for a little bit, but a lot of times this is something we’re buying. Um, and then we will then take over and run. We just have to make sure we’re prepared for that.
Doug English: Yeah. And so, uh, title insurance is the one that came up first.
So do you, uh, I, I [00:13:00] just asking, do you often see where the credit union has some participation in the space prior to an acquisition or is there there a market entry? Uh, the acquisition?
Michael Bell: Yeah. So it could be both. I’ll tell you that for the most part, this is market entry though. When I think of title companies.
So I think a credit union looks around at what it’s doing and it’s seeing its first mortgage HELOC operation, and there’s some third party that’s doing the title piece, and they probably do it well and it’s great, but they’re looking at the cost and fees involved in that and thinking, boy, we could kind of feed our own machine for that matter and, um, deliver better value to our members at the same time.
Mm-hmm. So on the title insurance piece, it’s often market entry. When it comes to investments in insurance, usually the credit union is in that in some way. It might just be through referral systems. You know, those are deep in our industry. I think they’re great, not against [00:14:00] those. Um, but they’re usually toe in somehow.
Mm-hmm. And then they realize, oh, there’s actually a, a bigger opportunity for us, and they will go away from the referral and, and do their own.
Doug English: Yeah. Yeah, that, that makes sense. I mean, uh, running a wealth management firm, when I’m not running a podcast, I know that there is a, there’s a bit of a different philosophy, uh, in that space versus, uh, in, in a lending institution.
Uh, and, uh, I, I would think that the credit union would be more. Successful. If there already had a team that was kind of running a, a successful investment department and they just bolted on and a, uh, an RIA or, or a independent advisory firm, um, onto the system, I think that would make more sense. Um, but uh.
Again, going through the three title, property and casualty and uh, and, and investments. I would assume that probably investments one is the one that takes the [00:15:00] most capital. ’cause I’d think the price would be higher. I guess it, it’s a matter of scale, right? Mm-hmm. But I, I would think the, the, there’s so much private equity.
Activity in the RIA world that the prices have gone way, way up. I don’t know that that’s the case. Uh, you know, I, I know you see veterinarians, you see dentist, uh, they’re all, you know, it’s all part of the roll up game, right? Where you, you, you buy a bunch of smaller entities at a, at a low ebitda. Multiple, and you roll it up to a, a large entity that has a bigger, uh, multiple and the, the spread is how your, uh, day, uh, day goes.
Um, so are you seeing those, that sort of competition and, uh, title and property and casualty, or is that just not there yet? Because if it’s not there yet, that sounds like a heck of an opportunity.
Michael Bell: Yeah. So you’re right on this roll up thing, and I mean, you didn’t mention things like. Plumbers, electricians and HVAC contractors too, right?
That in the industry, the PEs are doing it everywhere. Yeah, I’ll tell you that. Um, I’m sure it’s happening in those spaces, but I’m just thinking [00:16:00] backwards, Doug. You know, anecdotally, if I look at the last 20 or 30 of theses that we’ve done. And I think a great majority are on a smaller side. So I’m just trying to think of some investment things that we bought.
And it’s really just been one person, right? It’s been a, it’s been a single person that has built a business in a town and they’re looking for an exit plan or they’re looking for, you know, some growth. ’cause there are some young investment advisors that are looking to kind of pair up and have a chance to grow.
And they found this is that as well? It’s definitely the smaller end of the market. For the most part. We are not, we again, are not buying massive operations. Uh, or at least we haven’t been a part of that.
Doug English: Yeah, yeah. The. Very, very interesting. Like I said, I hadn’t seen any press on that before. So, um, all right.
So this activity is happening. It’s in a QSO sometimes, not in a qso other times. Uh, and, and it’s creating immediate [00:17:00] cash flow, uh, for the credit union and that kind of, it, it sounds all good. It just kind of makes me wonder. Why isn’t it happening more Like what, what do you hear? Like, is the board just afraid to go outside of the core, uh, area of the credit union?
Is that what’s holding, uh, things back?
Michael Bell: Yeah, so I think there’s, there’s two sides to that answer. The first thing I would say is I think it is happening more than we know, is it so me just sitting here, I know how much we’ve done it right. And I’m sure there are plenty of other people doing it. We’re not the only show in town.
It just doesn’t make necessarily the press that we all read. Then second, I will tell you that because there is not an established, you know, marketplace like there is, when we go and buy a bank, I think it is a little more challenging. It’s a little more hit or miss. You can’t really run into these accidentally or see them broadcast in some general place.
You’ve gotta go get these. You’ve gotta put yourself out there for the most part. These won’t find you, you [00:18:00] find them. And that’s a big deal. I think. Um, you could sit at your desk and never have put yourself in the marketplace to buy a bank and probably see deals today because they get broadcast depending on the seller.
Uh, that won’t happen here. Very rare. And so I think the fact that there’s not a, an efficient marketplace. Also, these just don’t get the coverage. These are happening. They really are you, Doug, you were shocked earlier when I told you how many we did last year.
Doug English: Yeah, I was completely like, again, I never see it in the press.
Never see it.
Michael Bell: Yeah. And look, we’re pretty active. I have clients all over the country. Right. I’m not bashful about that. We do a lot, but I know again, we’re not the only show in town and there’s plenty happening that we don’t touch. We did a ton last year, and if I think about it, it was more title companies than anything else.
Mm-hmm. There’s no reason for that. It, I mean, it’s just the coincidence of it. We’ll see what 2025 brings. But there was a time, it was like last February, [00:19:00] we probably bought four or five different title companies from Wisconsin down to Texas in the month of February, 2024. But you know, there’s no reason.
Doug English: Well, it seems like this, remember it seems like the shortest step right from the court business of a credit union to buying a title insurance company seems like a, an easy. Step and then the properly and casually is a, is a, a small additional step in the RIA. They, uh, you know, they, they may already be in, so they make, it makes sense to me.
Uh, it’s just interesting to think about the strategic plan, uh, that it. It originates from, right? Yeah. And is it’s, is a, it’s a strategic growth plan. Uh, I assume that, uh, the, uh, executives has put together with the board, uh, and this is part of that strategic plan as, as just a broad growth, uh, growth goal?
Or do you see it as it is, you know, this is a specific, uh, target towards these industries? How do you see it?
Michael Bell: Yeah. So I do think [00:20:00] obviously it takes some offense, takes some boldness, perhaps a little bravery if you’re gonna step into new. Mm-hmm. Um, and those that I think are most effective and do it well and do it the best are those that have a deliberate plan.
Right. They’re the credit unions we’re speaking and they said, look, we want to be in. Insurance and title, let’s do it right. I mean, we, we are focused. They have, they have thought about their organization and what they can support and they do it, um, deliberately and strategically. And again, if you look, sometimes it’s, it gets a little more pressed just ’cause the scale You’ll look at, you could look up super regional or regional banks and if you follow them, you will see announcements.
With them doing this very thing, but more up market. And because they’re publicly traded, they do hit press. But you’ll, if you follow Truist or Fifth Third, mm-hmm. Um, those type of banks, you’ll see a lot of buying and selling of various ancillary businesses [00:21:00] happening all the time in their world. Again, different scale than ours.
Doug English: So, so let’s say that you are a credit union that’s listened to this podcast and you think, all right, I wanna learn more about what’s going on in this area. Ideally from credit unions that are doing it, have done it, have some, uh, track record to, uh, uh, to, to teach the rest of us about. Is, are those conversations happening, uh, in a way that you know about and if so, where?
Michael Bell: Yeah, so I, I, I mean, I, they are, I. Our industry, um, ’cause the only industry I serve is great in that regard. Like, I, I believe that. Yeah. And so when, when people are thinking about this, or perhaps I talk to them quickly, I’m like, look, you should, and I’m not, I’m not gonna name names on a podcast, but you should call this person and that person.
And those people are, you know, are gladly speaking to their peers about what we’ve done together, what they did, why they did it. And it’s very helpful. And I’ll tell you, [00:22:00] Doug, sometimes those conversations lead to the person saying, well, yeah, this is not for us. Which is a great answer too. It is. Um, and then the other half of the time it leads to them saying, yeah, we want to go on offense.
We’re gonna toe in on, on, on, on getting an insurance business. I always say that the right answer is both yes and no. The wrong answer is just missing it. Not considering it. Yeah. Not knowing it’s available and putting your head in the sand. That that’s the problem I have. I, I’m happy to go in front of a board or C-suite and have ’em say, Hey, we get it.
No need for us to do it. I’ll say, great job. Right. You know, check that off your list. Uh, just like, yep, this is a great idea. Let’s do it. It’s those that are unaware, I think, that are missing an opportunity at least to understand and say yes or no. That’s the key.
Doug English: Michael, do you know, are there states with regulatory No GOs in this area there?
Michael Bell: I’m not aware of any. So, so the, you know, the NCA QSO [00:23:00] rule and you know, clearly has permitted, uh, powers. These all tend to fit in there. States either, either mirror that or have their own. Um, if they have their own, they’re usually almost identical. Very rarely are they less permissive. So I’ve yet to run into a situation again, I don’t have ’em all where I’ve been in a situation where we were like, oh wow, we actually can’t do this.
And we’ve done it coast to coast. Um, so I just have not seen that as an issue
Doug English: In some states, credit unions can’t buy banks though, right?
Michael Bell: Correct. Well, to be clear, credit unions can buy banks in 50 states. In some states, banks cannot sell to a credit union. Ah, there’s a distinction. It’s a limitation on a bank’s power to sell, by the way, produced by the bank lobby, which is just wild and we don’t need to go down that rat hole, but, but they advocate for and pass specific laws to limit the power of their own customers to sell.
Just to be clear.
Doug English: Well, I, it just got me [00:24:00] thinking that the credit unions that are in that space, were they, to have that interest, uh, this is an alternative that, uh, I’m, I’m not sure how you would weigh it, uh, versus you wouldn’t weigh it ’cause you can’t buy a bank. But it would be an interesting alternative to at least consider in your strategic, uh, design.
Michael Bell: Agreed. It’s all non-organic growth. And again, I think there’s a lot of credit unions that don’t do any non-organic growth and good for them. I’m not suggesting it’s for everybody. But the non-organic growth spectrum, Doug, you’re right, would include whole banks if you can, bank branches, if you know if you can, and then all these businesses, if the strategy makes sense.
That’s, that’s the, the trifecta of non-organic growth,
Doug English: the trifecta of non-organic growth. I think we found a title for our podcast, Michael.
Michael Bell: That’s right, that’s right.
Doug English: Awesome. Well, thank you for, uh, making the time to come back again and to, uh, enlighten us about this, uh, this busy. A part of credit union growth that, uh, I at least was, uh, pretty unaware of.
[00:25:00] So I hope this, uh, this helps our listeners and, uh, again, if you want the real expert, reach out to Michael Bell, uh, and he’ll tell you what’s going on. Thank you again. Michael. Any final words for our listeners?
Michael Bell: Yeah, Doug, I appreciate it. I, I will lead the, the final thought is not do this or don’t do it.
The final thought is actually based on where we are today, now would be the time to consider it. Right. Very active, lots of opportunities up to you if you do or you don’t, but you’re gonna miss the boat. If you don’t at least consider it now, now would be the time to, to think this through as a strategy.
Doug English: Right on. Awesome. All right, Michael, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for your work, uh, supporting and driving the credit union movement forward. Uh, we will look forward to talking to you again.
Michael Bell: Yeah, Doug, my pleasure. Thank you.
